Transcription of Ivy Frignoca for the show Happy Lawns, Healthy Waters #243
Lisa: Today, it’s my great pleasure to have with us in the studio one individual that I’ve spoken with before, who I thought very highly of, so I was very happy to bring her back, and another individual who I am just meeting. The first individual is Mary Cerullo, who is an award-winning author of 21 non-fiction children’s books on the ocean, as well as a handbook for teachers on using children’s literature in the science classroom. Her latest book is Shark Expedition. Mary is the Associate Director of Friends of Casco Bay and has over 40 years’ experience as a science translator. As such, she has interpreted marine issues for the general public and for marine user groups to the New England aquarium, the Maine New Hampshire Sea Grant College Program, the Great Bay National Estuarine Reserve in New Hampshire, and the Gulf of Maine Research Institute. Thanks for coming back in Mary.
Mary: Thanks for having me back.
Lisa: Ivy Frignoca is the Casco Baykeeper. Before her role with Friends of Casco Bay, Ivy worked with the Conservation Law Foundation on issues facing Maine’s marine waters. She served as the Ocean’s Clean Water and Cleaner Advocate throughout New England. Her professional experience also includes teaching Marine Biology and Ecology, interpreting natural history, designing policies to protect and promote Vermont State parks and forest, and advocating for stronger environmental protections for Lake Champlain. Thanks for coming in for the first time Ivy.
Ivy: Thanks for having me.
Lisa: You and I of course knew each other, because many moons ago, I knew you when you were a student at the University of Maine School of Law.
Ivy: Yes.
Lisa: Yes. We were looking at the picture of my son who is 22, and he was a baby when you graduated. That’s two decades ago. You and I know each other from that long ago.
Ivy: Thanks for sharing that information with the public.
Lisa: Yes. You were just a baby when you went through. Obviously, you’re still quite young. I’m actually really glad to have the both of you in, because I think Friends of Casco Bay is doing such great work.
Mary: Thank you.
Lisa: We know that Mary, you came in and you spoke with us before about what was happening. Ivy, you hadn’t yet joined, but you were on the horizon. I’m really happy that you came in and decided that you could spend a few minutes with us.
Ivy: I’m delighted to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
Lisa: You went from the Conservation Law Foundation to this role as the Casco Bay keeper. What was the draw for you?
Ivy: Well, the draw was, in my prior job, I worked all over New England on a variety of issues. My passion is the ocean and water quality issues. The particular draw is this is a once in a lifetime position. It’s a vocation to be a water keeper, not just a job. It was a huge draw to work for Friends of Casco Bay. It’s an incredible team of educators and scientist and to be in-house working with them, so that anything that I was advocating for was informed by our science, or we could look at issues and then develop our science protocols. I get to work with people like Mary to reach out to the public and educate people about the issues that we’re working on. Everything was a draw basically about the position.
Lisa: I certainly understand why you’d want to work with Mary, because I think she’s quite wonderful as well. I’m interested in the work specifically, because we’re now at spring time. We’re heading into a season where people are starting to think about perhaps their landscape. I’m interested in what you’re doing with lawns and safe lawns.
Mary: We have a program, I’m almost embarrassed to say, for 18 years now called, “BayScaping,” trying to get people to reduce dependents on fertilizers and pesticides. As Ivy said, the research we’re doing has backed up the fact that nitrogen from fertilizers and other sources, when it washes into the bay, it creates real problems, because, like on land, it fertilizers the green stuff in the ocean. Some of which comes out on to the bays and coves as this green slime of algae. When that algae dies, it not only uses up the oxygen as it decomposes, it also puts in carbon dioxide into the water, which is actually making our mudflats, our shallow water areas more acidic, which is hard on the shellfish.
We’ve also tested for pesticides as they enter the bay and found it all around Casco Bay going into the water. Our position has been, “Let’s to keep it out of the water,” trying to give people alternative ways of taking care of basically their lawns, because things wash off the lawns more than off your gardens or under the duff, under trees. That has been an ongoing program. We give workshops and materials and things like that. After 18 years, the use of lawn chemicals really has decreased very little.
Now, communities are taking it into their own hands. There’s all citizen groups that are advocating for ordinances, places like Harpswell, which just passed it its town meeting, and ordinance restricting the use or banning the use of neonicotinoids, the bee-killing chemicals, banning spring near the shore, and the use of fertilizer and pesticides in the shoreland zone. South Portland just had a first reading for its ordinance which is going to be a sweeping ban on the use of pesticides. Then they’re going to get to fertilizers after that, but they’re going to ban it. I’m pretty sure it’ll pass.
First after a year of education, they’ll ban it on public properties including their municipal golf course except for their tiered areas, because they really haven’t come up with the way of dealing with keeping those greens weed-free and perfect for potting yet, but they’re going to work on it. The year after that, they’re going to ban it on private property. Then a year after that, make sure that all these things are working. They’ve tried to include all sorts of ways of dealing with issues as they arise, so that people will adapt. Well, first, be educated, adapt, and then they’ll adapt the ordinances that goes. It’s really going to be an interesting ordinance. I think a lot of other communities are already looking at for themselves.
Lisa: Ivy, you spent time in Vermont as well and you’ve done work with Lake Champlain. What do you see as the, I guess, similarities and differences between the two states?
Ivy: Are you asking me with respect to the water quality issues that I’ve worked on?
Lisa: Yeah. Water quality and environmental issues.
Ivy: I’m going to focus on my work with Lake Champlain and with Casco Bay. One of the big similarities is that Lake Champlain is now an impaired water body. It’s listed with the federal government as a water body that’s not meeting water quality standards. That’s because of all the nutrients that have been loaded into it. In fresh water, it’s phosphorous. That’s the fertilizer. In salt water like in Casco Bay, it’s nitrogen. There’s a parallel in the issues that we’re dealing with in terms of how do we reduce the sources of these fertilizers that are getting into the water bodies, and impairing them for the uses that they’re naturally intended for, and the uses that people make of them.
The difference is that in a freshwater body, where you’re not dealing with tides, you’re not dealing with influxes of waters with different types of salinity, you can measure what’s going on and craft solutions in more straightforward manner. I’m not saying that it’s easy solutions. It’s not an easy solution in Vermont, because a lot of the fertilizers are coming from farms and they’re trying to figure out affordable ways for farmers to deal with reducing the runoff that’s contributing to Lake Champlain’s demise.
Here, our scientist, we’re grappling with, “Okay. Where is this nitrogen coming from? What happens when you have more freshwater carrying more into the bay? What happens with then level of salinity changes? How is it impacted with rising sea level and rising temperature of the salt water?” It’s just so very complicated, the science and what we’re trying to do that one of the best solutions that we can come up with, which is simple, is to reduce the nitrogen going into the bay in the first place. We know it’s bad and trying to measure how bad it is or where it’s having the worst impact is just a much more complicated scientific equation.
Lisa: Now obviously, you focus on Casco Bay, because you are Friends of Casco Bay. We do have a large number of fresh water sources throughout the state. We have Sebago Lake, just in Southern Maine for example. We have lakes, we have rivers. There is actually an impact and I’m sure that there must be connection between what’s going on in land and what’s going on out here when you get to the end of the river, say, as it empties out into the bay. What are you doing about that?
Ivy: I’ll answer and then if Mary has anything to add, I like to make sure he has an opportunity to answer too. There’s two things that we do as an organization. First off, we look at what’s going on in the entire watershed. Your question was really a stoop, because we are talking about, “What are all these different inputs and what’s going on?” Because we are a limited staff, sometimes, we address those watershed wide issues by being part of partnerships or coalitions with other organizations, who have focuses in different parts of the watershed, so that we can work together, not duplicate work efforts, and make sure that together as teams, we’re doing the best job to clean the water for everyone in the watershed.
We do the same thing up and down the coast, because as you can imagine, Casco Bay is just part of the Coast of Maine. So many of these issues affect all of coastal Maine. We have partnerships with other organizations up and down and the coast. One of the most exciting right now is a partnership that we put together with a couple other nonprofits called, “The Maine Ocean and Coastal Acidification Partnership,” where we’re working with researches up and down the coast to fully understand coastal acidification and what we can do to protect our shellfish populations. Mary, do you want to add anything to that?
Mary: I was just saying, talking about partnerships, we have a really large, well-trained core of water quality monitors who are volunteers. To your point where they have found the highest concentration of nitrogen coming into the bay is at those river miles. That tells that the sources are coming from land. It’s not only professional associates that we work with but the citizen scientist are a big part of our program as well, which is I think is really unique and pretty exciting that people, who aren’t scientist can actually contribute data that is used by the state, by other researches, actually submitted to congress as part of our Clean Water Act requirements. Yeah, it’s a great coalition.
Lisa: I have some significant worries about what pesticides do to human health, so I think it was probably 10 years ago, I wrote an append for a local paper about pesticide use on playing fields. It was interesting, because a few people would connect in and say, “Oh, I’ve been thinking about that,” but not many. Mostly, it was just a vast silence. It’s good that, I guess, nobody was fighting with me, but on the other hand, it feels like now, people are really willing to engage. Now, there’s not that vast silence. Now, people are finally saying, “Okay. Yeah, maybe we should be careful about pesticide application, because our children are going to playing on these fields.” Or, “We’re going on a golf course. We’re going to be on these golf courses ourselves.” What do you think has shifted? I don’t know, maybe … Have you seen the same thing in your organization?
Mary: I’ve seen it in these BayScaping program. Scarborough is one of the first communities to control the use of pesticides, only organic pesticides on playing fields. The new ordinance that’s being proposed for South Portland specifically includes athletic fields. There was a big discussion about that, because coaches will say, “Well, you can have a hole in the ground. Somebody’s going to fall and trip over weeds or into the hole and break their ankles.” There is the side of how to make it safe for players. I think more people realize now that rolling around on pesticide is not probably not a good idea. There is an awareness, but it’s coming from a ground swell of community members that I think is really exciting. I think in the next couple of years, we’re going to see some really big changes in regulation of pesticides, especially for athletic fields and playgrounds.
Ivy: I think what’s interesting about listening to your question and Mary’s response is that when you were first raising this concern, people were just beginning to really think about this issue, who knows why in that particular time. Over a very short period of time, there has been more scientific data collected, even including our own data out in the bay, just taking a snapshot of where pesticides are entering the bay.
That rapidly, the public has become much more aware that even though we live in a state where we think we’re in this totally clean environment that these are real threats, and they want to do something about it. I think that’s what’s so terrific about working for an organization like Friends of Casco Bay. We can identify the issues who are located on the region. We can collect the data so that whatever action is taken, it’s taken based on good, factual information and can really have an impact. It’s pretty exciting to see these efforts going on in the communities that are around Casco Bay.
Mary: To that point, it’s really interesting. There’s an organization that’s Washington DC based advocating for removal of pesticides all over the country. They’re having their national forum here, April 15th and 16th at Hannaford Hall at USM in Portland as a result of the ground, the advocacy that’s been happening here for the last couple of years, which we found really exciting that they’re going to bring in all these national experts, and have a discussion.
Our point is to include people like landscapers, arborist, others who work in the industry as part of the conversation. We have a real collaborative approach, which sometimes separates us out from other organizations, but we want to put everybody into the conversation. I think that whatever is created as a result, is a lot more responsible. I know a lot of communities are trying to do that as well.
Lisa: That’s an interesting example of something that I grapple with, because we spray pesticides, because we don’t want mosquitos, because mosquitos spread illnesses, used to be malaria and now, we’ve got Zika virus and we’ve got all kinds of fun things that are cropping up. We know that if you don’t have a way to deal with organisms that are causing disease, then you cause human health problems.
Now, you’re causing health problems by spraying these pesticides. I grapple with that. I grapple with the fact that we now know the people are flushing into the ocean the results of their prescription drugs that they are taking a lot of. We’ve got birth control pills floating around in the waters that will then eventually somebody will end up ingesting that, so you see what I mean? There’s an interesting balance like health.
Ivy: There are many interesting balances. I think when I listen to this dialogue, a couple things come to mind. First is at how important it is that we’re now aware of these things. If you don’t know that it’s getting to the ocean when you flush it down the toilet, if you think you’re doing the right thing by responsibly getting rid of extra medicine that you don’t want around the house, but you don’t know it’s causing another harm, then you can’t stop and make another choice about it.
I think the same thing with flees. I find the flees debate really hard, because if you’re wearing a product or clothing that’s made from recycled plastic, and that’s such a good thing, I don’t know about you, but I have flees that is older than my children. The fabric last and last and last. Well, that’s a good thing. I’m not going out and buying new products all the time. I can’t say, “Oh, suddenly my flees is bad. I would also have practically nothing to wear. I have my dress flees and my play flees.” What do we do about that? Do we look at supporting companies that can design filters for our washing machines? Do we look at supporting companies like Patagonia that are looking at playing with different lint fibers so that our flees won’t shed?
I think these are all just incredibly complicated questions. As we gather the science, it’s so important to have the conversations and make decisions that are not easy. These are not black and white decisions. Killing someone, that’s bad. That’s black or white. I guess even in war, you could say is never completely black and white. So many of these environmental decisions fall in gray areas between competing harms and competing goods. It’s pretty tricky.
Lisa: All I know as a doctor, I’m not one to willy-nilly prescribe medications and in part, I’m thinking about the long-term health of the patient that they really need an antibiotic, that they really need to use birth control pills or is there another option for them. I’m always trying to balance their short and long term health. I’m also thinking, the more people we load up with medications, the more medications get peed out into the water, the more medications gets flushed on the toilet. The stuff, it’s just this vicious cycle. It’s an interesting and weird place to be existing. You know enough to feel a little concern, but you don’t know quite enough to know where to go next. That’s what you’re working on.
Mary: Right.
Ivy: Yes.
Mary: We don’t want people get stuck at the guilt phase.
Lisa: No. Of course not.
Mary: It’s nice to have some solutions. What I like about our organization is we do merit the science and advocacy and the outreach. I think that’s a good three Bronx stool to have at our disposal where we’re trying to raise the issues, but we try to base them on science. We try to give people solutions as much as we can.
Lisa: Ivy, you’re only the second baykeeper, is that right?
Ivy: Technically, I’m the third. Joe Payne retired in December of 2014. The Executive Director for Friends of Casco Bay served as the interim bay keeper during the search term, and then I came on board as the third baykeeper.
Lisa: I would assume that the baykeeping rule is one that continues to evolve.
Ivy: Absolutely.
Lisa: What does it involve now? What are you going to be focusing on in the foreseeable future?
Ivy: I have two really big goals. This will, I’m sure, span over the entire time that I’m bay keeper. I hope to hold this position for quite a long time. The first is the city of Portland has struggled for years with excess storm water running into the bay and carrying with it raw sewage, when there’s overflows. That happens every month, or still almost every month, there are episodes where that still occurs. I feel very strongly that it’s one my missions to continue working with the city.
They’re under a court order to clean this up. They’ve been under that court order since 1991. It’s an inexpensive and difficult process. The problem in some ways is exacerbated by climate change, because we now have more significant storm events with more water. I’m sure that the listeners will remember. It was only last September that marginal way, another streets were completely flooded in Portland and very difficult to pass. That’s a really big task. The other one which I’ve alluded to is climate change. That takes into account all the whole gray area that we’ve talked about with just that climate changes everything.
It’s rising temperature. It’s rising pH. It’s a change in composition of organisms in the bay. There are so many different impacts on the bay caused by climate change that trying to get a handle on what’s the new norm in the bay, how can we help the bay adapt, and how can we slow down some of the impacts of climate change. Those are the big issues, but the role has also changed. I don’t know if you want me talk about how the role has changed as well from when my predecessor held the position.
Lisa: Sure.
Ivy: I think when Joe Payne started, there was a really clear cut problem. A report had come out indicating that Casco Bay was very unhealthy and that pollution from sewage was the primary issue. Joe is a scientist and he was really focused on collecting the science and working on starting to alleviate that problem. The role developed from there. By the time I’m on board, a lot more of the job deals with policymaking and the regulatory process. The science is still critical. I’m still very much immersed in the science and work very closely with the scientist on our staff and scientist at other organizations. More of my time is spent in the legislature, or reviewing permits to make sure that the limits in the permits are sufficient to protect the bay, advocating for particular laws, and looking at things at that kind of end of the spectrum.
Lisa: Mary, how about you? You’ve been doing this for a little while now. How has your role continued to evolve?
Mary: I think when I first started, it was 19 years ago now, I was more focused on just doing our publications and supporting Joe. I used to say I was his office wife, because I would draft things for him, and write policy papers for him. Ivy is really an amazing writer herself, so she doesn’t need as much support. Also, as my interest areas grew, there was the fact that we have all these wonderful data. I have worked with educators in the past, so I put together some curricular activities that used our data. Now that we’re really focusing a lot on climate change, there’s a lot of local data that I’ve incorporated into activities that kids can do to think about how climate change is affecting us locally.
One of our mottos is, “Think local. Act local.” Also this BayScaping Program, even though almost everything we do is focused on the water, BayScaping focuses on lawns, which seems to be an oxymoron. Because of the impact of nitrogen, fertilizers and pesticides, we realize we had to get people involved and thinking about how they use their properties. Even if they lived far up the watershed, it still comes downs those rivers. I’ve been able to build up different kinds of programs. Having Ivy on board, it’s so cool. I love Joe and he very much supported Ivy’s hiring. Ivy brings an energy and a whole new perspective, so it’s almost like starting all over again. It’s very renewing. It’s been really great. Can it only be two months?
Ivy: I think at listening to Mary too, it reminds me that when Joe started, he was the sole employee and a team built over time behind him. A water keeper’s supposed to be the eyes, ears and voice of the bay. I am supposed to be the primary eyes, ears and voice of the bay, but I’m just one of a team that’s doing that at Friends of Casco Bay. Mary has particular subject areas that she is a recognized expert; BayScaping, pesticides are among those.
Mike Doane has become a phenomenal public speaker and he deals a lot with nutrients that are getting into the bay like nitrogen, and the impacts of lotion acidification, and reporting on the data that our volunteer scientist have collected. That’s a difference too. Joe was trying to do it all himself, because that’s what the job was at that time. I’m enmeshed in a very talented team, and we can tag team things. I think that creates a lot of excitement and motivation for all of us to do our jobs, because we’re doing it together. We’re thinking out loud. We’re working collaboratively.
Lisa: How can people find out about Friends of Casco Bay and the BayScaping Program, and all the other wonderful things that you’re doing?
Mary: They can go to our website with is CascoBay.org. they can stop by our office, which actually is on the campuses, Southern Maine Community College in South Portland. We also are having a number of events in the fall. We do this great film festival that we’ll be advertising for November 12th. We’re also putting together a plan called, “Nitrogen Napping,” which is going to be on July 10th, where we’re going to recruit 100 volunteers. A lot of them will need to be boaters to collect water for us that we’re going to send off and have analyzed for nitrogen. It’s a one-day citizen scientist event.
Ivy: I would also say, Facebook, we do probably more posts these days on Facebook. I’m trying to keep up with Twitter, but that’s not so much my thing. I think a great way, if anybody’s listening and wants to be involved is to join us on July 10th. We already have a lot of people who’ve expressed interest in being volunteers, but it should be a lot of fun. The science from that day will be used to help the Maine Department of Environmental Protection, set limits that can be used on how much nitrogen can be discharged in the bay. It’s an opportunity in one morning and a couple hours to do something that will have a real impact for the state.
Lisa: Well, I encourage people who are listening to find out more about the events you’re describing and also Friends of Casco Bay. We’ve been speaking with Mary Cerullo, who is the Associate Director of Friends of Casco Bay, and also with Ivy Frignoca who is the Casco Baykeeper. It’s a really a pleasure to have you in here today. I appreciate all the work that you do.
Mary: Thanks so much.
Ivy: Thank you very much.