Transcription of Peg Libby for the show Family Transitions #60
Dr. Lisa: This is Dr. Lisa Belisle and you’re listening to the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast, show # 60: Family Transitions, airing for the first time on November 4th, 2012 on WLOB and WPEI Radio, Portland, Maine. Divorce is a difficult event for all involved. It could be an especially challenging transition for children and parents. Today’s conversation with Atty. Catherine Miller, former judge and mediation specialist, Dana Cleaves and Peg Libby, Executive Director of Kids First will help us learn ways to strengthening newly restructured family bonds.
I have my own very personal experience with family transitions that occur due to divorce. For readers of my blog and patients and people in my community, this news doesn’t come as a surprise. My have a wonderful father who is very devoted to them and we were able to remain married for almost 19 years, but not too long into the marriage, we began to suspect that things weren’t as they needed to be for us to remain as a couple. We tried very hard, and when I finally experienced job loss and lots of other things that many people who are listening I know understand: financial difficulties related to the economy, inability to sell a house, things like that really toughen our family. At the same time, we understood how important it was for our three children that we maintain family strength. This show is deeply personal to me. I understand how challenging it can be to go through a divorce both as an individual and as a mother.
I also have counseled many patients and their families through the divorce process, and through family restructuring. I know that the statistics tell that at least 50% of all relationships end in divorce. Unfortunately, I think that this is an all too common occurrence that people are really willing to talk about. I also think it’s something that society contributes significantly to. It’s something that – there are things that we’re doing within our bigger world that are causing marriages to come under pressure and feel significant strain. I’m honestly not sure that our culture and our society is very marriage-friendly or very relationship, long-term relationship-friendly in general.
But that’s not what this show is about. That show is about people who have gone into a place where they know that they need to restructure their families for whatever reasons and I hope that by listening to Catherine Miller, Dana Cleaves and Peg Libby, you’ll gain some insight into ways that you can foster resilient children and help your family move forward in a stronger way.
(Music) The Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast is pleased to be sponsored by The University of New England. As part of our sponsorship collaboration, we offer a segment we call, “Wellness Innovations.” This wellness innovation comes from the Dartmouth Undergraduate Journal of Science. On average, children in married families fare better than children from divorced families. Nevertheless, the vast majority of children possess great resilience and the ability to cope with or even benefit from their new life situation. Internal factors such as the child’s psychological and physical characteristics and external factors such as the immediate and extended family, and the community environment influence the child’s resilience and ability to cope with parental divorce. Good parenting and extra familial protective factors such as peer relationships, schools and support from non-parental adults including mentors and neighbors also contribute to children’s resilience and effective coping. For more information on this wellness innovation, visit doctorlisa.org. For information on the University of New England, visit une.edu.
VO: (Music) This portion of the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast has been brought to you by the University of New England. UNE: an innovative sciences university grounded in the liberal arts. UNE is the number one educator of health professionals in Maine. Learn more about the University of New England at une.edu.
Dr.Lisa: Earlier this fall, Catherine Miller contacted me and say, “You know, I think you might want to have a show about this very important topic. It’s something that I deal with on a regular basis and I think it’s something your listeners should learn more about.” So I agreed and I talked with her and I said, “What is it that you think people should know about families in transition or people who are divorcing or separating, what is it that’s important because I know that this impacts families in a much bigger way than a lot of people often anticipate when they go into the process?” So joining me today, I have Catherine Miller who is a local attorney specializing in Family Law. I also have Dana Cleaves who is a former family court judge.
Dana: That’s right.
Dr. Lisa: And Peg Libby who is the Executive Director from Kids First.
Peg: Hi there.
Dr. Lisa: Catherine, just tell me the name of your law firm for those who are interested in learning more about you.
Catherine: Miller Family Law and Mediation.
Dr. Lisa: Why is it that each of you chose to be involved in a field that can probably be somewhat challenging at times? I mean, when you’re going into a situation that families that are going through these significant transition: divorce, separation, emotions are high. Do you want to start with that?
Dana: I think the three of us probably came from different directions but all of the same concern which is, primarily, I think is that when families go through the transition of divorce, it’s really the kids that are most vulnerable. We can pretty much be certain that the divorcing parents are going to be okay a few months after the stressful divorce process, but whether the kids are okay or not depends almost entirely upon how the parents do it. How successfully they try to navigate that transition. From my own point of view, I was seeing as a child court judge specializing in Family Law that way too many parents who are not doing that successfully. The adversarial process that the courts provide was not helpful to say the least in that transition, so I left the court to do a private practice in that.
Catherine, I think come from the same motivation.
Catherine: I would agree to that. I was a litigator and in a general, defense term in town and enjoyed the litigation, enjoyed the court and found myself navigating to family cases and realizing those completely inconsistent with how a family should handle their divorce. So over the years, and the last 15 years, I developed a practice where I’m providing folks with an alternative approach to going to court. Ultimately, they may wind up in court to finalize their divorce, but at that point it’s the final, agreed upon divorce and they’ve done all the hard work outside and instead of being in a courtroom, they might find themselves in an office like Dana Cleave’s office mediating. I’m now doing some mediation but I’m still lawyering and we’re trying to provide these folks with the form to resolve disputes in a normal couple fashion.
People think divorce is just inconsistent with an amicable process, but I think if you guide the folks, put them in the direction of Kids First, put in them into mediators’ hand, they can go through this process with respect, with dignity and realize that they’ve preserved their family. They changed it. But I think it takes some negotiations and some direction that I think leading by example and really showing them they can do it.
Peg: Yeah, I completely agree. That’s what Kids First is all about. People usually can get through divorce. Kids gets through divorce actually quite well as long as there’s not continued conflict. It’s not divorce that really hurts kids, it’s continued conflict. Every program at the Kids First center is caught through the kids’ perspective. “What does this feel like?” I found that even really good parents don’t always understand what behaviors make it difficult for kids. Divorce is so prevalent in our society, I think people don’t think it’s a big deal. Divorce is a big deal to kids. It’s a big deal. But how their parents handle it makes all the difference in how well they get through it.
Dr. Lisa: Peg, give me a little bit of background on Kids First and how it came to be.
Peg: It’s pretty neat actually. Back in the late 1980, there were a group of Family Law Attorneys and a group of mental health professionals. They were each working with divorcing families, but they felt that they were giving different advice and they were called resources for divorce families. They decided that they would try to develop a co-parenting education program for divorcing parents that taught people how to go through the transition and set up what we call a co-parenting relationship. They brought in a teacher from Cobb County, Georgia and he did a lot of work in divorcing parents and it’s a psycho-educational program that they put together. The Kids First Program was born in about 1988.
They chose to always have it presented by one man, one woman, one family law attorney, one mental health professional, and not make it counseling and not make it therapy. Just make it what we can psycho-educational. Then on the late 1990s, they thought, “Wow, it could be really great if we could have all these services under one roof and open up a center. They teamed up with the Junior League of Portland and in 1998, the Kids First Center opened.
Dana: And that’s when we hired Peg, and since then it’s been really successful. Pretty interesting how that came about because Peg’s right back in the early 80s when I first started specializing in divorce as a trial judge. It was obvious that the legal professions and the mental health professions weren’t even talking to each other about the impact of divorce on kids. In fact they were both so suspicious that the other profession was largely the problem. It was really, I think it was Kathleen Sullivan who really suggested we get the professions together and start having these annual educational seminars. We simply, from there, didn’t know how to fund raise, until the legal women board came along and said, “Look, we can help you. We’ll give you some financial help and we’ll give you some training.” In three years time we hired Peg and it has since them became a tremendous resource for divorcing parents and their kids.
Peg: It was a great opportunity for me. I had worked for another non-profit for 18 years and had some ideas that I wanted to try out. When I decided to throw my hat in the ring and apply for the Kids First Center job, it enabled me to do lots of things that I had wanted to do before. My background isn’t mental health or law, actually. My background is fundraising, marketing and public relations. Resources for Divorced Families and the Junior League of Portland thought that I would make a good executive director and I’m glad that they had faith in me to do that and it has been great.
Catherine: We help at the center; I’m on the board at Kids First. I couldn’t say we, but I think we helped 3,500 people a year?
Peg: Yes, over 3,500 people a year. For direct services; that’s not just on the phone, that’s direct services. I’m very proud of that. There was a very small budget but we are a lean mean machine.
Catherine: I think as a practitioner, what I enjoy most about the center is I have something that I can turn clients to. When clients want to do something, they want to learn more, they have something to go to; they have the Kids First program to learn about the first four hours of the divorce, and that parenting program, they’ve got the next step when the conflict and the anger really is just inpalatable. Last, they also have a – there’s more, but then the high conflict, the nine-week program, the “I Cope,” is an extensive parenting education program. People come out with skills that really carry with them as they try to co-parent.
Peg: I think that’s the one thing that the center does very well is that it gives people practical tools to use. It’s not therapy as I said, it’s not counseling, but it gives them a tool box to use; it gives them the language. It teaches them how to set-up a respectful style of communication with their former spouses or partner. I just think that’s what helped make it so successful. We also do divorce support groups for children. We work with kids grades one all the way up to high school.
Dr.Lisa: Catherine, what are some of the things that you’re noting as issues for people who are coming to you early on in the divorce process? What are some of the biggest things that come up for the individual or the family?
Catherine: I think that right now is, we’ve been talking a lot about the kids finances are a clear issue. I don’t think the economy has been kind to families, and that is a stressor that impacts and hurts us. I find that in the last couple of years, people are living together longer clearly after the marriage has broken down. But by the time they get to an offer to meet to a mediator or anybody, they’re after a rich son. I think a little bit problem solving; figuring out how are we going to save the home? How are we going to deal with the debt? What big tools can we do? My approach is looking at the problem, trying to maximize the pie as large as you can, and be creative in the way we solve those financial problems.
It’s easy to say that house is going to foreclosure, but that’s not going to be a long-term solution. I think the creativity needs to come into play. I think that co-parenting is something that you teach; I don’t think it comes natural. It’s ironic that during the marriage, people may have trouble and difference in parenting styles and now they come to me in the divorce and I say, “Unfortunately, you’re going to have to become a better co-parent than you were. The communication skills you didn’t have during the marriage now need to be strengthened.” People look and say, “How am I going to do this?” I think that again, putting people in the right hand, teaching them that they can do it and come to a win-win solution, it breaks down to be possible.
Peg: And teaching them that they can do it because it’s best for their children. I think that’s how we get to parents is by saying, “Listen up, nobody’s going to win here. Nobody’s going to lose.” To set up this relationship, this new co-parenting relationship, and style of communication is good for your kids.
Dr. Lisa: Dana, what are some of the things that you saw when you were presiding as a judge? What are some of the things that caused people to be most adversarial in the courtroom setting?
Dana: First of all, just the process of divorce is special all by itself. It means the breakdown of the relationship that they had great expectations for, so now matter what the cause is, what the circumstances are, it could take loss, a really hurtful loss. Some people are in emotional stress, it’s hard for them to, in that same process, to come back together and communicate appropriately and resolve all the issues that divorce presents because as Catherine points out, there are financial issues, there are property issues, there are parenting issues, there are ongoing support issues in the future, very complicated and difficult issues. They’re angry and conflicted and going through a stressful process, so it’s difficult to do that.
The problem with the court process, although we need it as a safety net, and it’s kind of a final play to get a decision made if it can’t be done any other way, is that it’s essentially, adversorialy based. You bring all you information and ammunition into the court room and try to persuade that this doesn’t make you the – that you should win and the other side should lose. That’s just a very destructive way to resolve issues for folks that have to come back together after that process and provide co-parenting.
In my private practice, I try to help the folks focus on the fact that even though a divorce is happening, if they have children, they are always going to be a family; and they should even use that terminology and help the kid understand that once they’re through their process, they’re going to be very supportive of each other as they parent and be able to communicate and cooperate in their care, and if they do that, the kids will be fine. So they won’t have lost anything other than their parents being in the same house; that’s the loss that they can manage.
Catherine’s absolutely right. One of the big ironies of this whole process is that in almost every divorce, inability to communicate appropriately is at least a part of the breakdown, and yet what they’re hearing from me is now you got to communicate better in taking care of their kids after divorce. It really is ironic, but it can happen if the process itself doesn’t destroy it.
Dr. Lisa: The other thing we tell parents was that they’re parents forever hopefully, and that even though they’re daughter may turn 18 years old, they’re still parents. You want to be the one that’s invited to the hospital and the blue grandchild is born and you want to be part of the wedding and I hear horror stories from adult children whose parents won’t even stand on the same room to have their pictures together during a wedding, it’s just ridiculous. If you really think about putting children first, that wouldn’t even be part of a discussion around wedding planning, as to who’s going to stand next to – who would not be in the picture.
Catherine: I think it’s an awesome put things in perspective when you have a difficult situation, and whether it’s the finance they can’t decide on or the children. I look at the folks and I look at my clients, if I’m mediating, we’ll get the children and sign. If you clearly cannot agree, we have a perfectly confident experienced judge who can make a decision. But who do you think is a better decision maker right now? The both of you or you as an individual client? You know your family better than anybody; you know what your children like, you know where the money goes, you know how you want to spend money. Do you want to decide or do you want a judge who is busy, who’s going to hear the case for four hours to make the decision?
Ultimately, it may not be Plan A, it may not be Plan B, and sometimes that option to use what they choose. But they’re still better decision makers than a judge. Not because a judge isn’t qualified, it just – they don’t know all the facts and I think a former judge sitting here would agree with that.
Dana: Absolutely
Catherine: But they’re there when we need them, as you said, they’re safety net.
Dr. Lisa: For those who are listening who aren’t familiar with the process of mediation, can you give us a little bit of background on what mediation is, what are the benefits, what it actually does for the family?
Dana: Sure. Mediation is essentially an alternative way to try to resolve all the issues that a divorce presents. By alternative, I mean alternative to the sort of well known process where you go in and have a judge decide those issues for you. It mediating, I have certain skills in terms of facilitating the client’s discussion around the issue, make sure that they are really articulating their own concerns about the issue in a way that’s clear so that the other person can take it in, then when that happened, then use to drawing the table, we’ll let the mediator draw to facilitate the discussions around the issue and help them come to agreements that come as close as possible to being totally satisfactory to both of them.
There are different styles within mediators and the mediation process. My own is a little more directive because my background is as a decision maker in that area, as opposed to having formal training in mediators. I’m a trained mediator, but I don’t have any formal training myself. But what I do to try to increase the success rate in the mediation is to help them using my judicial experience to help them understand how the court looks at that issue and what the considerations are and what the laws are. Maybe in what a lighting result would be if I was their judge rather a mediator. Having that information helps couples who are even very far apart on an issue to come to an agreement on it because they understand the context of their failure to come to agreement. It just increases the success rate from one.
The whole purpose of mediation is to help folks get through the process, end up feeling as though they did it as well as they could, that they treated each other fairly and they were treated fairly, because that puts them in the best possible position to have a good co-parenting relationship after the divorce, as opposed to having a contentious process and having somebody else impose a decision upon them that neither of them may like and have the conflict continue, which interrupts the communication and cooperation around their kids.
Dr. Lisa: But doesn’t just necessitate that both parties are actually willing to come to the table?
Dana: Yeah, it does. Surprisingly, I get a lot of referrals from mental health professionals, I’ve been working with couples and they can kind of explain the difference between that and the adversarial process. A lot of folks has had family members and friends who’ve gone through the contested process and understand how destructive it is. I think couples seeking out alternative much more on their own than they were 10 years ago. I think it’s become more known so that there is an alternative out there, and people call Catherine and call me to get that kind of help as opposed to automatically hiring a paid advocate that can then make the process contentious.
Catherine: There are also a lot of advantages and studies show that long-term people follow mediated agreements that they reach. The settlement agreements, mediated agreements have a lot of longer life. People, when you have a judge’s decision often then in a few years look to change it because they’re never satisfied from the beginning.
The second thing that I think the advantage of mediation is they save money. You can save a lot of money because you’re not hiring necessarily two lawyers from the very beginning of the case to the very end. That’s an expensive litigation process. The advantage if mediation is people can still use lawyers; lawyers are not cut out of the process, to the extent someone feels they need representation, and Dana, you will happily have how many lawyers attend? It’s not necessarily every step, and as a lawyer, I am often counseling folks who are in mediation. I’ll prepare them for the mediation, I’ll tell them the law, I’ll tell them what their rights are, and give them parameters in which they have a right to make a decision. They know what’s there and often as decision falls within that parameter, but it’s how they want it. That’s again, the key to control. Having control to make your own decisions is really important.
Dr. Lisa: One of the things that I hear over and over again from my patients or from friends who are going through difficult times is they’re not even sure how to begin the process, just from a practical standpoint. I know that it’s tempting to just pick up a phone, call your friend and say, “Well, who do you know who’s a lawyer?” How do people find lawyers in the community who know how to do mediation and who sort of tend towards that direction? How do you start gathering the research –
Dana: I think it’s very similar to finding the right medical professional. You don’t just pick somebody out of the yellow pages. You do ask friends and other people you know in that community for references; it’s equalities’ for a set up. For example, there’s an independent source of references. Probably most of my clients nowadays come from former clients who read is the reliable source, your mental health professional if you’ve been working with the counselor and do that. I think it’s worthy to do a little being around as opposed to making a quick decision just like it is in any other important process you’re going to be involved in.
Catherine: I think lawyers have a lot of control over the process, and I think that people need to interview lawyers. They have to interview a lot, but if they walk in to a lawyer’s office, and that lawyer has, at their age, their claws out or just an approach that that client’s not willing to take, they need to get a second opinion.
Dana: True.
Catherine: I tell my clients to the first initial consult, don’t make any decisions today; go home. You’ve heard how I approach things, this is my style. This is a really important decision for you. Just like a healthcare provider, you need to be matched up with somebody who cherish your philosophy, that has a balance of compassion and of diligence, and respect. I think that the client can often get in the wrong hands.
Peg: I really agree with that one. When parents call and ask for references from Kids First, we remind them that they are the boss; they are the ones that are hiring this professional. If they want to disagree, then they need to speak up and say, “No, I don’t want to do it this way. I don’t want to go down that road. I think it’s really important that – we have clients that call and say, “Well, the dad and I thinks that this could happen,” which they will, that’s fine. Tell your attorney. “We can tell our attorneys that?” “Yes, actually you two can make the decisions. Anything that you agree to is great.” They’re sort of surprised. They think once they start the process, it’s all in the lawyer’s hands. And that they just sit back and ride along, and that’s just not true, they are the boss.
Dr. Lisa: Peg, one of the questions that I asked you the other day when you and I were talking on the phone was what are the long-term implications of – or ramifications of divorce on children? This is clearly something that the parents have initiated; the kids don’t necessarily want their families to be fractured. Very few children are actually fans of divorce. What do we know happens with kids who’ve gone through the divorce process.
Peg: Well, research shows that a very adversarial divorce; Divorce with high conflict. Here’s our greater risk for substance abuse, for risky behavior, for truancy, for homelessness. Part of the reasons is that there aren’t two parents that are really watching out, especially during the high school years.” I’m going over to dad’s house.” “Mom doesn’t speak to dad how he’s spoken to them for five years. And she’s not at dad’s house. She’s at somebody else’s house. She’ll be real, active parents. Because they’re not communicating with the other parent.
But it doesn’t have to be that way. I think that’s one thing that I want, your listeners to take from this. Kids get though divorce. Kid’s get though very, very well. It’s how their parents handle it that makes the big difference. That’s really the deal breaker.
Catherine: Children also emulate the behavior of their parents; parents are role models; children are a little bit of schooled parents. If they see a situation where parents aren’t treating each other with respect, they’re going to learn that’s how you handle relationships. I think having that co-parenting relationship as a role model really is guiding them as to how they’re going to handle future relationships.
Peg: Yes. That’s one real challenge for kids that have been in highly cooped conflictual divorce situations. If they’re really afraid to take a chance on love, and we hear that over and over again, we interviewed some high school students a few years back, and they really talk about this; the fear of marriage. Their fear that it’s not going to work out and that’s kind of sad.
Dana: That all arises from the fact that the parents are in conflict; then the kids can’t be close to one parent without feeling disloyal to the other. Think about what that means emotionally for a child, not being able to be close to one parent without feeling disloyal to the other. That’s what gives rise to this concern, a few making commitments on their own when they’re older.
Peg: Loyalty issues are huge, huge for kids. “We’ll have parents call and say, “Well, he doesn’t want to go to mom’s house. Should I make her go?” She doesn’t really want to go to mom’s house. Oftentimes, kids will try to protect the parent that they think is more sad, is weaker, and they’ll stay to protect. It isn’t that they don’t want to go to the other parent’s house. They’re afraid that that parent’s going to be lonely, they’re going to be sad. One thing we really stress a kid first is to support the relationship with the other parent. They –can do that, and sometimes they don’t even realize that they’re trying to undermine that relationship. But complimenting their dad or their mother in front of them. “Your mother was always a terrific skier.” Just small things like that really say to the child “I respect your mother; I respect your father.”
Dana: And it’s okay if you need to be close with her.
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Catherine: I think one of the questions I commonly have in my office is what is the age that children are legally allowed to decide where they want to leave? Again, it’s not a question of when they get to decide, it’s a question of what do we need to do to fix the problem? Why is it that they don’t want to go there if that’s really to lift the case? What it is, what do we have to do? How do we improve things?
I think that there’s this twitch, and I just spent 15 years but I’ve been doing this, I think that people are approaching it with saying, “Okay, we’re going to start with 50-50.” I think that the primary residence, one child living with one parent isn’t as common as it was 15 years. Judge Cleave can even say longer. So I think I helped the presumption there that kids benefit from two homes, that’s there. So when somebody says, “That’s not the case in our family,” practitioners and providers really need to find out why. Get them to Kids First; educate them. Learn what the problem is because often, it can be fixed, and when it is, it’s for the benefit of the family. The parents win as long as the children.
Dr. Lisa: On the other hand, a parenting arrangement that was great for a six-year old probably isn’t great for a 15-year old. It may not be 50-50 in that maybe what’s best at that time, to a kid in high school if they want to spend Saturday night with their friends, and if the other parent lives in Vermont, and there’s a big dance, somebody’s going to say, “Hey, I understand you want to go to this dance. That’s great, have a great time. Call me tomorrow, let me know how it went.” Even though 50-50 sounds like the absolute best, parents should stay open to the idea that at some point, they may have to give up a little time just because they’re putting their kids first.
Catherine: Yeah. There is an odd number a day within a week, so it’s not always 50-50, but what we use in the practice is substantially equal parenting: how are they involved? Who’s going to the game? It’s not just for kid’s sleep, it’s how are the parents parenting.
Dr. Lisa: I have a question about gender roles. I know that this is something that used to be the case, but it’ll be the mother who was given primary custody and then the father that get visitation, now we have more of a co-parenting situation, but I have male friends who have suggested to me that they still feel that there’s sort of a female bias to the legal system. What would you say to that?
Dana: Yeah, there certainly was when I first began in 1980, ’79 and ’80 when I first started hearing divorce matters, it was sort of culturally inbred, likely because traditionally mothers were home more, I mean, the dads were the breadwinners. That whole thing has changed for the last 20 years. In my practice I don’t see it anymore. I do have couples come in that have that sort of preconception, but with a little time and effort, they can see why there’s no real, solid foundation for that conception, it’s not necessarily in the kid’s best interest to have a preference based on gender. That way, I don’t see that there’s a hindrance anymore. I’ve been gone from the court long enough, now I can’t say if there’s a remaining bias amongst the judicial head, just not sure about that. But I really don’t see it in my practice.
Catherine: I think also practically, this may be an indirect result, but I think the divorce changes the family. And often, somebody who was the breadwinner, he can’t capture the gap that financially exist. I think you’re taking one set of household in an expense and dividing it in two households. There generally is a change in work. Somebody may have stayed home, and presuming in your role it was the mom, likely she may be returning to the work force. That changed and a stay-at-home mom often does change. Not just because of the divorce, but because the children are getting older and time requires her to have health insurance too. There’s a difference now. I think financially, that has led into eroding any bias that really ever may have existed.
Dana: There really is a fast-paced change. It’s only in the last 20 years to be the child support guidelines which were recreated in 1989, was sort of fractured on the fact that there would be a primary residential caregiver who was almost certainly to be the lower earner, meaning mom, when the whole guidelines were structured that way. And that’s just not – they don’t fit any more in terms of the majority of cases. What I do with my clients is to have create budgets for both of them going forward. Taking what their monetary needs are, and that detects all of the needs in budget. Then we have to take a look at the guidelines to see if they happen to do it court side, but if they don’t, we sort of move on from the guidelines and do something that is practically workable.
Dr. Lisa: When you and I were talking on the phone, I think I wanted to call you Judge Cleaves.
Dana: Dana’s fine.
Dr. Lisa: Dana, okay. You and I were talking about the fact that a lot of judges didn’t really want to even see divorce cases. That this is something that – people sort of, I don’t know, they kind of gravitated towards you because you had personal experience and professional experience, and personal interest.
Dana: Well, when I explained to you, Lisa, I said when I expressed interest in hearing divorce matters, they kind of came flooding to me because a lot of other judges realize that they didn’t have the time of the training or the resources to really try and improve that process and they were glad somebody was trying to do that. It’s also to ensure – I must say that some judges don’t like the emotional stress and messiness of divorces. But the primary problem that we were faced with then, was the funding of the court festive and our inability to make the changes in the process until they were glad somebody was trying to make that happen. That’s why I think I was able to make it a specialty for the last 13 years that I was here.
Dr. Lisa: One of the things I’ve noticed within my medical practice, and even within the community at large is that, divorce is sort of still this very hard thing for people to talk about; it’s still almost a secret in fact that I’m often surprised about the people who would tell me after the fact, “Oh yeah, we got a divorce a year ago,” and I’ll be thinking, “How did I miss that?” Why is divorce still such a secret on a day and age where so many people are engaging in this? And what are the problems associated by keeping this secretive?
Peg: You’re absolutely right; there’s still a lot of shame that’s around divorce and it’s so unfortunate because unfortunately, half the marriages in this country do end in divorce, and keeping it a secret is really not great for kids because if the schools don’t know it, if the teachers don’t know it, if the neighbors don’t know it, it makes it very difficult for a child, and a child feel like, “Well, this must be a really shameful thing because we’re not sharing this as a family with anybody else. We try to help the schools understand; we try to tell the parents to involve the schools, involve the daycare providers. Let your kids’ friends’ parents know.
It’s interesting, I think it also makes fundraising harder too, because after divorce, people will just like to forget about the whole thing, thank you very much. And Kids First is supported by the generosity of the community; we do charge course fees but they’re very minimal. An all-day $380,000 budget, only 80,000 is covered by course fees. We raise $300,000 a year and people really love the center, they love what we do, and it would be great if after things calm down and things settle down, they will remember us as well when the annual appeal comes around.
Catherine: I think though that the answer to, and the other point that I just made, it shouldn’t be a secret because people needs help. When I see a client, I know when they’re not emotionally dealing with it. I put them in hands: “Have you talked to the counselor?” “Have your children talked to the counselor?” “Have you talked to your primary care physician?” “Do you need help getting through this?” “Have you talked to your accountant?” There are so many different professionals that can make the divorcing process or separation process smoother and just possible, that keeping it a secret, they’re bearing that all, and as practitioner, you’d think that, “Well, they must be handling that aspect, or help must be –,” but help must be find.
In reality, it’s a holistic approach. That’s the exciting part of talking here to the listeners: get help. See who you need; talk to others, open it up. Chances are, the people you have been talking to have also been impacted directly or indirectly from divorce.
Dr. Lisa: What suggestions would you offer – we’ve been talking about parents, and we’re talking about the impact on children, but what suggestions would you offer to people who’d like to support a family in transition? I know that this is one of the reasons why often, people don’t talk about divorces because other people don’t know what to say. So if you’re a teacher, if you’re a healthcare provider, if you’re somebody who’s never personally gone through divorce, what would be a helpful thing to hear?
Catherine: “I’m sorry you’re going through this. Please let me know if I can help.”
Dana: And if you’re a friend of the couple who are divorcing, don’t take sides and don’t abandon them. We have to follow their clue, obviously, about what they want to do during the process. We should let them know, that “I hope we can remain friends with both of you, and be there for you through this process.”
Peg: Yeah, that’s really important. One of the things that happens is people start to form tribes and they start to get, “These people are on my side, and these people are on my ex-partner’s side, and it’s just bad for kids.” If you have to talk negatively about your former spouse or partner, do it right in the therapist’s office. You can do it with your best friend but don’t try to make them come to your side. That really is really hard on kids, so try not to get auntie and grandma and everybody lined up against you, badmouthing the children. If you go to Grammy’s house and she’s badmouthing the child’s father, that makes the child feel terrible. Kids really do feel a part of each of their parents.
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Catherine: I think people also compare their divorce to other people’s divorces. Whether they’re taking legal advice or comparing financial situations, doing this for as long as I have, there are no two divorces that are the same. Something is different: incomes, debt, houses, children. Something is different. So when a client hears, “You need to fight for this,” or “That’s wrong. He should be responsible,” you should get this. It’s setting expectations that are almost unachievable. That causes the person going through the divorce stressed, because they’re going to want to go back and say, “I couldn’t get this,” or “This happened. I settled for less.”
Everybody’s divorce is unique and you need to let them go through the process. Support them but not necessarily give them the advice because chances are, that person doesn’t have the full picture.
Dr. Lisa: Isn’t there also something that goes on where there’s almost a mirroring effect or maybe a contagious thing that goes on where you tell somebody, “Oh. I’m going through a divorce,” and they reflect back to you their fears about their own marriage. Or you tell somebody, “I’m going through a divorce,” and they reflect back to you their grief over the loss of your marriage. Is that something that you see in your practices?
Catherine: It’s kind of like labor stories (laughing).
Dr. Lisa: It’s true.
Catherine: I think that everybody – it reopens wounds, and it reopens thoughts, and it is a way to share experiences. Sometimes when you hear, “I’m going through a divorce,” “Let me tell you about mine.” It brings a common bond. But again, you need to remember your individual situation and respect there’s going to be differences.
Dr. Lisa: How do lawyers feel about this? How do lawyers feel about – Catherine, you’re a lawyer, and Dana, you are also a lawyer. How do lawyers feel about getting in the middle of these highly charged emotional times which impact children, impact families. How must this feel?
Dana: Well, it really has become a specialty; it’s very hard for a general practitioner to include a divorce to a year in his otherwise civil file practice for those very reasons. A lot of it is personality-driven, so some folks can deal with emotional stress of clients calling him all day and night and others can’t. Revenge, there are judges who could deal with family law cases for a year then after being out for a while, they get a recess because of the stress. Some of that particular personality-driven.
Peg: Not all attorneys, but I think most attorneys really hate the high conflict divorce. It just takes a lot out of everyone. When we designed our nine-week course for parents who have been in continued high conflict, the attorneys are saying, “Yes! Go. Spine up. I want these people to be done with this.” It’s not good for anybody, and very few attorneys get any kind of a charge out of working with very highly conflicted parents.
Catherine: I think the most conflicted feels like a lose-lose. They don’t feel like they’re winning the battle and they see it as a battle. We don’t, but they do. Also, it’s expensive to fight. It’s because you’re calling your counselor; you’re calling Kids First. They’re calling. They’re lawyers but then the lawyer calls the other lawyer because they can’t talk. I think clients been realizing it’s expensive to end their “Cotton’s Trap,” but largely I think you’re both right. You need to have a certain tenacity to work with families in so much turmoil.
MY approach is, they have to realize it’s not the end of the world and things are going to get better. That things will come out. New opportunities exist and they will need to realize that you can live again. Approach it amicably and respectfully will still be a better approach, a better feeling for them. I think, I’m constantly trying to educate them.
Peg: They won’t do it all perfectly. They won’t do it. We really try to stress that this was a tough time. And this is going to be a rough patch; but I agree with Catherine, it’s going to get better. We have a program for parents who remarried, who are step-parents and it’s much more happier situation, but it’s still very tricky. Oftentimes, the co-parenting relationship will be going along pretty smoothly and then one parent or the other will become involved with somebody and remarry. Then there’s a speed bump; that the family needs some help over, and we want to provide that help as well.
Dr. Lisa: When you and I were talking on the phone before, Peg, you mentioned that this mostly sounds like – but mostly what you’re working on is communication skills and human relationships. Things that are broadly applicable, whether it’s to parenting or to other situations.
Peg: Oh, it’s absolutely true. When I was applying for the job, I sat through a Kids First program, because I thought I need to know as much as I can, especially before the interview. A lot of it is just good parenting. Don’t badmouth the other parent in front of the child; don’t use the child as the messenger. I was blown away by how much – it was just around basic good parenting. At the center, we use an expression. We’d like to think of this as it’s our little addition to world peace. One co-parenting partnership at a time.
Dana: In living and country.
Dr. Lisa: There’s a book that Kids First has created?
Peg: Yes. It’s a great book. We asked the children in our divorced support groups if they had advice to give grownups, what would it be? The name of the book is “What Kids want grownups to know about divorce and separation?” It is fantastic, really, because it’s a very easy read, it talks about things like holidays, how to handle holidays, how to handle transitions, how to handle the birth of a new baby and a new family. It’s available through Amazon, through Barnes and Noble, through our website of course. Just click on the “We Wrote a Book,” banner and you can order a book through us. It’s a very practical guide and it would be great for grandparents to read, parents, kids themselves, school personnel, anybody that works with these families.
Dana: Lot of insights on that book.
Dr. Lisa: How do people find out about the Kids First Center?
Peg: We have a very complete website, which is kidsfirstcenter.org. We also always answer the telephone. If you get voicemail, it’s because we’re all on the phone, but there’s a real live human being. We give practical advice, not – I shouldn’t say we give advice. We can help guide and answer questions in a very general way. Obviously, we’re not attorneys and we’re not mental health professionals, but we certainly can provide some guidance. We have a good resource and referral guides so that people looking for mediators, attorneys, we can help them find those as well.
Catherine: Do you have a lending library?
Peg: We do, yes, we do and it’s probably the most complete library around the issues of divorce since preparation north of Boston. We encourage people to come in, it’s a lending library and they can freely take out books.
Dana: Also, a lot of us in mediation field and legal field and mental health field refer folks to the Kids First Center. We always have the brochures in our office. It’s a part of my work with every single couple that I work with.
Dr. Lisa: And there’s a yearly benefit that also educates attorneys, is that right?
Peg: All professionals, actually. Part of our mission statement is to educate professionals around issues in divorce and separation, and we just had our conference called the virtual venom about how the social media and internet can play a part in either rationing up the conflict, or lessening the conflict. It can be the use for good and evil.
Dr. Lisa: You have a Facebook page?
Peg: We do. Please friend us; we want as many friends as possible. But the website is really quite complete; we have a kids’ section, we have a video that was produced by kids, we have a bibliography, suggestive reading, lots of link as well. That’s really a great – and you can register for a lot of our programs on our website.
Dr. Lisa: Catherine and Dana, how can people find out about you and your practices?
Dana: Most referrals, as I indicate before, come from previous clients and from mental health professionals and other members of the legal community. That’s my experience. How about you, Catherine?
Catherine: I think that’s how I’m often found. I think that I do have a website also, Miller Law Mediation.com, that offers information about how to approach divorce with an alternative approach; how to have some limited representations so if you can afford a lawyer from start to finish, how you can get some good legal advice to make really good decisions for you and your children. Dana and I are both in the Old Port, Kids First Center on St. John’s Street. We’re accessible; I think people need to do research before they head down the path of divorce.
Dr. Lisa: I appreciate you coming in and speaking with us today about the issues of families in transition. We’ve been talking to Dana Cleaves, Peg Libby and Catherine Miller and I appreciate all the good work you’re doing for the children and the families and the parents in this community.
Catherine: Thank you.
Dana: Thank you.
Peg: Thank you.