Transcription of Eric Topper for the show Outdoor Education #141
Lisa: If you have small children or if you don’t and you just like to walk, you may have spent time at Gilsland Farm in Falmouth, which is part of the Maine Audubon Society. Today we have with us Eric Topper, who is the director of education at the Maine Audubon Society. Eric Topper manages youth and adult education programs throughout the state, including pre-K programs, vacation and summer camps, school partnership programs, and adult learning and trips. Eric lives in Portland with his wife and two children. Thanks for coming in today.
Eric: Thanks for having me. Eric, you weren’t born a Mainer, let’s say.
Lisa: Eric, you weren’t born a Mainer, let’s say.
Eric: That’s true. I was raised in the Midwest and ended up in Portland about 12 years ago now.
Lisa: You spent some time in Boston right before that.
Eric: I did. My wife was in grad school in Boston and we lived there for two years. I worked there for Thompson Island Outward Bound on an island in the middle of Boston Harbor and had a wonderful, exciting commute to work everyday and also ran programs in the mountains of New Hampshire. Sort of had the best of both worlds living in the city and working in places that took me out of the city frequently.
Then when we finished up grad school in Boston we decided that Maine was going to be the next place and that was going to be the place we were going to settle down, and we’re not leaving.
Lisa: What was it about Maine that drew you toward it?
Eric: For me the mix of big city culture, New England culture, combined with incredible access to the outdoors. Particularly the idea that I could enjoy a ocean environment and a mountain environment at the same time but then have a great meal that evening. To be able to do that all in one place was really exciting.
Lisa: You also, as you mentioned, worked for Outward Bound. That wasn’t necessarily a place you could have a great meal.
Eric: No, Outward Bound is not known for its food although there are certainly base camp chefs and cooks that are cringing when they hear me say that – and that was something to look forward to. Some of the best parts of Outward Bound were being done with a course and going out to a restaurant after a course.
Lisa: What go you interested in outdoor education?
Eric: My parents from a very early age cultivated an appreciation and a respect for the environment, wildlife, animals, that sort of thing. We always had pets growing up. Then I in my early teenage years in my quest for adventure and those sorts of things, I ended up on an Outward Bound course as a student when I was 14. Found there a combination of things that have stayed with me throughout my life, both the environment and the natural beauty of being in scenic places. Also the sense of adventure and the adrenalin possibilities of rock climbing and paddling and things like that.
Also the idea that those places were also places and ways that one could do soul searching and character development and things like that. Having experienced that as a student and as a recipient, that I decided that I was going to at least spend the early part of my career after college doing that. I like the idea of leadership and I like the idea of, again, teaching responsible risk taking and things like that. I’ve ended up staying there and really finding wonderful places to stretch myself professionally, but at the same time scratch personal itches around being in beautiful places and doing fun things.
Lisa: We had Eric Denny from Outward Bound on our show not too long ago.
Eric: Another Outward Bound Eric.
Lisa: Yes. He was talking about I guess the more extreme nature of what Outward Bound often does and the solo trips and how this was an important part of Outward Bound. I love this idea and it’s something that I’ve experienced myself as being very important. What I also like is the proximity of Gilsland Farm and Maine Audubon Society to people who may not have access. They may not have the ability to go out and spend time on an Outward Bound adventure.
Eric: Absolutely. I think Maine Audubon and lots of Audubon societies nationwide have it figured out in terms of bringing nature and the wilderness and wildlife and habitat into communities. I think outward bound and other … They’re wonderful resources, particularly Maine, to go somewhere and do amazing things in beautiful places. I think the community resources like Maine Audubon are just as important where people have really immediate access to these same sorts of opportunities to form values and experience things around them and that sort of thing really close.
The Gilsland Farm I think can be that resource for Portland. Portland has done I think a fairly good job protecting open spaces. We have Deering Oaks and Baxter Woods and all these wonderful resources here within city limits. What’s missing from those places is the interpretive support to go along with that that Gilsland Farm provides. We have staff; there’s a staff naturalist that you can talk to and say “I just saw this. What is that all about? Is that right for this time of year?” That person can go check with conservation biologists nextdoor and those sorts of things and really round out the experience.
At the same time, we’re pouring interpretive resources into that facility to make it speak better to those values. I think, as you said, it’s a really important resource to have in the community and we have these. We have a center near Bangor as well with the same kind of focus, a seasonal center at Scarborough Marsh and then sanctuaries all over the place. That’s the idea, is to give access to people to those same resources.
Lisa: I haven’t been to the center in Bangor but I have been to the one at Scarborough Marsh and I’ve also been to the one in Falmouth. The places I’ve been to that are Maine Audubon Society can be appropriate to really a broad range of ages, educational backgrounds, and understandings. I think that’s really interesting an important.
Eric: We consider that our job that as we get closer to these communities and we work directly with these communities that we’re here to serve, the idea is to find lifelong learning opportunities for the citizens in those communities. Each age group and demographic has its own priority area and the reason why it’s critically important. I think Maine Audubon at each of our centers and particularly where we are staffed and have programs, which is the defining characteristics of a center for us, it’s important that it’s all ages, that we don’t have a center that is “Oh, that’s the adult place or that’s the kid place,” that we have to do all of the above to do it fully.
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Lisa: When I was at Scarborough I believe I was on a school field trip with one of my children and it was the Scarborough Marsh experience. It was very interesting because it’s very close to the road. There’s cars going by and not too far away there are birds and trees and swamp grasses and things that I’m sure I’m not scientifically labeling very well. I think that when we were associated with Falmouth we did something with owls at some point. That’s some very interesting thing about owl excrement actually; that’s something that I really remember. What are the things that seem to fascinate kids the most? What are some of the birds and animals and natural resources?
Eric: For me it seems to be a little bit age-specific in terms of what the hook is for the particular population, but I think one common theme that I think Maine Audubon has really tapped into, that you mentioned as well, is this notion of starting with the wildlife, starting with the critters, the animals – the owls, the birds that live in the marsh, those sorts of things. That’s I think what becomes the draw and the destination for people and a reason to go out into these places and then for us to provide access.
One of the ways we do this is we maintain a huge collection of taxidermy mounts, essentially stuffed animals, and our priority is animals that people would be fortunate enough to interact with in Maine and see her in Maine, and an idea for people to see those up close in full size and those sorts of things and get more familiar with them that way. That works really well for the kids programs, for the school programs, preschool and things like that.
Then you mentioned the live owl shows we do periodically three times a year. More so we do live animal shows at Gilsland Farm, the idea being that these experts in wildlife rehab and wildlife interaction, places like the Center for Wildlife down in York, come up and actually in a classroom get to let people see and interact with live animals that are in captivity but are native species. That becomes the draw I think. Different sort of populations go different places.
The kids want to go see more animals, so that’s going to get them outside and that’s going to get them to pursue curriculum and opportunities to see more animals. Adults can zero right into what are the systems that it takes to support these animals, and I get it, and the animals are endearing but I can think on a much bigger scale and I can think about the Scarborough Marsh, for example, as an ecosystem and I understand that. The animals are nice little hooks but I can go to a place that’s much loftier.
That’s what we’ve tried to do. I think that all of us in the environmental sciences field, all of us in the outdoor education field, we’re confronted with the crisis of our time – climate change – and so particularly figuring out specific hooks for specific age groups and population groups where we can get people quickly to buy into that. What they can do individually and as communities and in much larger groups, what they can do to deal with those problems and those challenges. Again, I think Maine Audubon has a great slant on that, starting with the animals. Keeping it exciting and real and giving it a face and a mouth and a nose and those sorts of things is really helpful.
Lisa: You have two children.
Eric: That’s right.
Lisa: How old are they?
Eric: I have a 4 year old son and a 2 year old daughter.
Lisa: What do they like to do when they go to the Audubon Society?
Eric: This has been really an exciting opportunity for me since I’ve worked there. I’ve been in education my entire career and this is my first opportunity to bring it home. My kids participate in programs at Maine Audubon and then we also go there periodically when family members are in town and those sorts of things. For my kids it’s been really fascinating to watch their development through the slant of this one theme, this wildlife and habitat theme.
My son in particular, my 4 year old, is right on that cusp where unstructured opportunities for exploration are really important. Also, he’s getting to that point where his brain is starting to organize things and look at characteristics and things like that, but then also he’s at that place where he’s looking to apply skills that he’s developing to particular areas of content. For example, yesterday at his preschool his teacher reported that this was off the charts and nobody had done this yet. He drew a bird and then asked to measure it. She gave him a ruler and he measured and reported that it was 7 inches long. She asked him if he wanted to measure in centimeters or inches and he reported that it was 7 inches long.
I believe she was just shocked about that and said “What do you all do at home? Are you measuring things and things like that?” The only thing I could relate that to was his learning about animals according to a structure in the preschool program at Maine Audubon, which stimulated him to come home and ask me to look at field guides and read him characteristics of different birds I think it was, and started getting familiar with this one’s 7 inches and this one’s 12 inches and those sorts of things. Then has actually gone out and sought to apply that which is pretty incredible.
I think those of us in the field of environmental education realize how important our field is for science and technology and engineering and math, the stem subject areas. This was a real world opportunity for me to see this at home. I think that the preschool programs are neat because that age group really benefits from, as I said, unstructured exploration, that sense of discovery where we just honor it. Then also really getting them used to a structure of discovery. “Okay, each class is going to follow the same general sort of plan. First we’re going to have the story and then we’re going to have some clues, and then we’re going to guess the mystery animal for today.”
The kids get used to following that same structure and they start looking forward to those mystery animals. Then they want to go home and actually anticipate what that mystery animal is and learn about related mystery animals. It’s just really neat to see that snowball take root, where in an eight week program there may be eight mystery animals. They’ll learn little facts, fun facts about eight different animals. To see that again snowball into … But they’ll also get familiar with measuring things and identifying and characterizing and that sort of thing. That’s been really fun for me.
Lisa: What do you do with your 2 year old?
Eric: The 2 year old is still very much in that place of learning … I feel like she’s in that age where she’s starting to form values, she’s starting to gain empathy, she’s starting to do those things. I feel like her exposure mostly at home and a little bit at school to books that are trying to teach those themes and stories about sharing and those things, but then also that combined with the empathy that’s getting taught more subtly at Maine Audubon where she’s learning about different critters that are all sharing the area around this. She doesn’t realize, I don’t think, that these animals that you’re learning about are specific to here. When we go to Florida she’s able able to point at … She knows that’s a squirrel.
I think it’s a really varied, mixed bag, and it’s been really neat to see that at different developmental parts. One of the great things that I’ve benefited from as well is both kids participate in the program together. We have a pre-K family program where the idea is a caregiver. In my case it’s our babysitter takes our kids there on Tuesday mornings for an hour. Both kids participate with her. They do a crafts project, they do reading, they do an outdoor exploration. Today I think they’re making sap; they’re learning to tap a tree. Kim’s going to teach them how to boil sap and what that process is. I know we’re going to have a super fun conversation tomorrow when we’re eating our waffles and sharing maple syrup.
That’s been a really, really fun experience. Maine Audubon also offers dropoff programs for pre-K age kids, just sort of three hours, one day a week where the students are opportuning. Those kids go a little bit deeper and then we get into the k-5 curriculum which is much deeper than that.
Lisa: You have summer camps programs as well.
Eric: We do. The idea is that we have school-based programs during the school year and then each time school is out, so school vacation weeks during the school year and then summer vacation we flip over to a camp model which is all day, different themes for the day where kids are going out and playing games and doing exploration and that sort of thing.
Lisa: What I found was … First of all, it was much easier when my children didn’t have driver’s licenses. I would say “We’re going to go somewhere,” and they would go, and generally they would like the animals. Now that my kids are older it’s not as easy to get them as involved as they once were, although I have a senior in high school, she’s taking AP environmental sciences so that’s helpful. I have a child in college; he’s a biology-zoology major, so that’s helpful, too. I still think that those teenage early adult years can be a little bit more of a challenge. I know you have a school program that goes all the way up through. How do you specifically work with the teenagers?
Eric: Most of our success working with teenagers has been through the teachers in particular and guiding teachers to come up with curriculum that’s both rigorous and engaging and really hands on I think is critical to those age groups. I also think those age groups benefit a lot from the destination and if you can add in some opportunities for adrenalin and those sorts of things and challenge. Those are, I feel like, really healthy ways to do that with those age groups.
Maine Audubon, again, is focused largely on the teachers. I think we’re working more on developing service learning programs and citizen science programs, which are really, really important opportunities as well. I think one of the things that’s exciting for me as an educator and dealing with changes in the way things are and the way the world works is the combination – and I’m particularly excited for middle school and high school age kids to be able to do this is – be able to merge field experience with data collection and sharing online, the wealth of resources now that I’m sure your kids are using all the time and those of us who are older are still learning to catch up and it’s not a part of our school experience yet – or wasn’t earlier. Now kids are getting that in part.
There are all these amazing resources to track where kids can go out and do work in the field and then bring that back to the classroom and enter those data and look at them and participate in projects and Skype with classrooms around the world, and all kinds of wonderful opportunities that are very exciting.
Lisa: How do you keep adults interested?
Eric: I think there’s a part of it that starts with the wildlife. I think we have tremendous success in our live animal shows with the adult market. I think that’s additional appeal having a room full of live animals is a draw for all ages. I think the other big pieces are part of the destinations, giving people packaged opportunities where they can have a really deep experience in a particular area. Then I think just the community, various community resources in terms of workshops and things like that.
The hardest part with adults I think has to do with scheduling and logistics. What’s the ideal Northern Maine immersion? Is it four days? Is that too long? Does it lower the appeal? Those sorts of things. That’s the tricky part there but I think we’ve done a really good job offering the array and saying if you can come for four hours and you can only make it as Gilsland Farm, let’s maximize your time there on a particular area. If you can spare four days to come up to Borestone Mountain near Greenville and add some time just sitting on the porch reflecting on your experience as well. I think the whole gamut there.
The other really exciting part for adults, and I mentioned this with the teens as well, is citizen science. The idea, which I think Maine Audubon is unique in that sense, of our blend of conversation and education. Citizen science, the idea that people can get out and contribute scientific data to major initiatives. This is a great way, again utilizing the internet and other resources, where a scientist can maximize the scope of their study area by mobilizing volunteers. Maine Audubon’s done this for many years with the annual loon count, property owners who live on lakes to count how many loons you hear and report that. We can get a pretty good handle on what we have for resources in the state and then you look at that over time and you figure out how we’re doing.
We’ve mobilized all kinds of other spinoff citizen science projects and then there are national and international citizen science projects as well. That’s a great opportunity for adults and particularly adult heads of family as well, that you can engage the family and you all participate in this project. Those are really exciting. I think that that’s the neat part is adults want to do something and they want to move to action. We’ve tried to celebrate that and capitalize on that a little bit.
Lisa: Eric, how do people find out about the various activities of the Maine Audubon Society?
Eric: Our website has made leaps and bounds in the last couple years. We’ve put a lot of energy into making sure that that becomes a really rich resource and that we prioritize right there on the landing page what programs are upcoming and what are opportunities to get people directly involved and working alongside of us. The website is www.mainaudubon.org. Then certainly any of our centers: Gilsland Farm here in Falmouth; the Fields Pond Audubon Center up in Holden, Maine just outside of Bangor; Borestone Mountain in Elliotsville Plantation; and then Scarborough Marsh Audubon Center in Scarborough Marsh open during the summer. Those are great places to just stop in and see what’s going on. We have what’s going on listed on the wall and people to chat about it.
Lisa: We’ve been speaking with Eric Topper who is the director of education at the Maine Audubon Society. Eric, thank you so much for continuing to bring really important information about the outdoors to the children and adults of the state of Maine.
Eric: Thanks for having me.
Lisa: You’re listening to the Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast, show number 141: “Outdoor Education.” Our guests have included Nik Charov, Dr. David Johnson, and Eric Topper. For more information on our guests and extended interviews, visit doctorlisa.org. The Dr. Lisa Radio Hour and Podcast is downloadable for free on iTunes. For a preview of each week’s show, sign up for our e-newsletter, and like our Dr. Lisa Facebook page. Follow me on Twitter and on Instragram as “Bountiful One.”
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