Transcription of Frank Wertheim for the show Happy Lawns, Healthy Waters #243
Lisa: Today, we’re going to speak about the growing and green things. It’s actually one of my topics that I … One of my favorite topics, I should say, although I always tell people I do not have a particularly green thumb. I like the idea that … I’m going to talk with two individuals, who do hopefully have all 10 of their fingers quite green. One of them is Amy Witt, who is the Home Horticulturist at the University of Maine Cooperative Extension in Cumberland County, and also Frank Wertheim, who is an Associate Extension Professor of Agriculture and Horticulture with the University of Maine Cooperative Extension based in York County. Thanks for coming in today.
Amy: Thanks for having us.
Frank: Thank you. Yes.
Lisa: One of the things is that I like about the conversation we’re going to have is that most of us have access to some bit of greenery in our lives. Maybe we live in an apartment, maybe we live in a condo, but most of us have access to a spot of lawn. Having a healthy lawn, which is one of things we’re going to discuss, is a topic that really everybody should be aware of. Tell me, Frank, what is it about having a safe and healthy lawn that has appealed to you, having worked with the Cooperative Extension for the last, almost 30 years?
Frank: Yeah. As I look back on the number of years I’ve been in Maine and seen the increase in proliferation of lawn care companies that are focused on several steps of pesticide and fertilizer management, many of which, sometimes are pined where the pesticides there are not. Not only that, through advertising, even if you don’t hire a lawn care company, a lot of people are convinced they need to be on these five-step programs, et cetera. As you go around, you see some of these beautiful lush lawns, you realize what the inputs are to create that and how it just becomes a bit of a vicious cycle, because once you get along and adjusted to that, it always has to be on that.
There are ways to have a really nice lawn without all those inputs. That’s what really what we see our work and is getting the mission out. Without excessive irrigation and excessive fertilizer and pesticide inputs, you can still have a nice lawn. Lawns are a funny thing. It’s part of the American culture. Some people just has to look a certain way and then others don’t mind if there’s dandelions and clovers in it. People are all over the place. They feel very strongly about what they believe in with their lawns.
Lisa: Amy, what is your intersection with having a safe and healthy lawn?
Amy: I agree with what Frank said. Also, a healthy lawn starts with healthy soil. I think people need to really look at too what’s going on with their soil. People use lawns to play on, to have their pets on, to walk on. It’s important that you have a healthy lawn, because it’s going to impact you and perhaps your health if you are using a lot of pesticides and fertilizers. Too much fertilizer can impact the base in our legs. Too much pesticides are going to impact our beneficial insects. You really need to think about what are you doing to get that healthy lawn. Can you perhaps live a lawn that is not necessarily a monoculture, but has a lot of interesting colors to it and some other plant materials such as your clover and your violets?
Lisa: When you say ‘monoculture,’ you mean a uniformly appearing, every blade of grass the same.
Amy: Uniformly appearing, exactly. It’s just grass. There are purposes for grass and for a lawn. As Frank said too, there are ways to get one without a lot of extra inputs.
Lisa: Well, Frank you talked about inputs.
Frank: Right.
Lisa: Define inputs for us.
Frank: Fertilizers and some of these five-step programs are fertilizing four or five times a year, and then with other products like Weed & Feed in them depending on the time of year in which step of the particular program that you’re in. Lawns do need fertility. A lot of people’s skep is really knowing what the healthy conditions are for a turf to exist in. A lot of times when I get a call at the Cooperative Extension office saying, “I’ve got this weed in my lawn. How do I kill it?” I take a deep breath and I try to get them to think about the grass from the lawn’s perspective.
In other words, I could recommend it in a nervous side that we’d kill this weed whatever it was, but that’s going to create a vacuum and nature abhors a vacuum. With that vacuum created, what the weeds are telling you is that conditions aren’t right there for turf. Weeds will just come right back in. If do a university soil test and know where your pH is your nutrient level is, a lot of times, just by getting the pH right, a lot of those grasses that are there, they’re not growing well, but the weeds can grow fine in acidic pHs. They will start to come back just from agricultural line, which is organic, naturally mined product.
Lisa: The lawn historically has been a sign of wealth.
Frank: Yeah.
Lisa: We started with people … They needed to have food, so they grew gardens on their plots of ground. They weren’t putting out lush greens, so that their kids could play soccer. My kids played soccer on my lawn, so I’m not downgrading that in any way. We have come overtime to believe that it is unnecessary sign of success in some ways. Maybe it’s a sign, whose time is starting to feed.
Frank: Yeah. I would agree with that. I think that there is a shift in the culture and along with the local foods movement. I think the people that are on board with local foods movement, and what goes in to their food are also concerned about their yards. We’re seeing in our programming a lot of interest in organic methods and low input methods and other means. There is a societal shift happening, but lawns are still a status symbol in uncertain houses and depending on the individual and how tuned in they are or not. Some people just don’t really think about it. They just want green lawn and don’t think about what the consequences of some those inputs may be.
Amy: Yes. Some people too are looking at, “I want to be able to grow my own food and what space do I have. I have this big lawn and I don’t need all of that lawn space.” That would be a good space to put in a garden, to put it into production. More and more people are thinking too about pollinators and how they impact growing food, a lot of other things. More and more people are getting into gardening. We’ve seen a quite a surge in that in the last few years and producing their own food, and preserving their food. Also too, trying to preserve the pollinators, like the monarchs. People are noticing. There are these many monarchs as there’ve been in the past. There are these many other pollinators. What can I do? Lawn isn’t necessarily going to support that. You need other plant material.
Frank: One of things pointed out, this time of year because we’re in the spring now, and pretty soon, things are going to greening up. One of the very first flowers that bees feed on are dandelions.
Amy: Yes.
Frank: Dandelion flowers. The bees are in a very critical phase at that time of the year. They’re basically on the verge of starvation, because they’d made it through the hive and their storage supplies all winter. They go out and they forge. If you allow some dandelions to go in your lawn and some clovers, especially the dandelions, because they’re the first species to flower, you’re actually really helping the pollinators by maybe taking a fresh look at dandelions is not the enemy.
Lisa: We could also create ground cover out of things other than straightforward green grass. I know that there are many people who are listening who have children, and their children maybe want to play soccer out front door, out back. There’s a reason to have a place for kids to play, but we want it to be safe. We can plant other things that will cover the ground just as well.
Amy: Correct. There are all kinds of ground covers. Actually clover used to be part of people’s lawns back in the ‘50s when Suburbia was getting started on Long Island in New York. There was clover seed incorporated into the lawn seed. You’ve got-
Frank: Clover also fixes nitrogen, so it-
Amy: Clover fixes nitrogen and also provides pollen-
Frank: Induces your fertilizer demand if you have clovers in your lawn.
Amy: I also think and I get a lot of calls from people who have a lot of moss. They want to get rid of it. A lot of times, the mosses in a shady area, grass doesn’t really grow very well in a shady area without a lot of inputs. Moss, there are so many different kinds of mosses. It is pretty sturdy stuff. It’s beautiful. I try to encourage people to, “Why don’t you keep it or reconsider?” There are all kinds of herbs like thyme and some other herbs that are used like in between stepping stones and that kind of thing that people put down. There are all kinds of options.
Frank: If I can give a shameless plug, Amy and I are both involved in a state-wide collaboration called, “YardScaping.” It was born out of the bayscaper program that started here at Casco Bay. Gary Fish, currently with the Maine Board of Pesticide Control is our YardScaping godfather, who heads up this program with as many of us involved. On their website, YardScaping.org, there’s a grass link, and in that, there’s a seed source link that look at all low input seeds and lawn de fleur and herbal lawns, and all kinds of alternatives. There’s a Allen, Sterling & Lothrop, which is a wonderful Maine seed company, also puts out a seed called, that he named in collaboration with us, “The YardScaping mixture.”
What’s wonderful about that is if you don’t want the lawn de fleur, and you don’t want clovers, but you want lawn that can stay green and not need as many inputs, these new species that been bred in the YardScaping makes just one of them. The Kentucky bluegrasses that are in them, for example, have a lot less demand for nitrogen, one of the big reasons for all that fertilizer is because Kentucky bluegrass is a hungry plant. By breeding new Kentucky blues that don’t require as much nitrogen, and then with that, the fescues that are in there in the perennial ryegrasses, have this beneficial relationship with the microbe, it’s called, “Endophytes.” We’ll get into endophytes.
One of the advantages for that is it gives it natural insect toleration to the surface feeding insects. It won’t get at your white grubs, but the things like sod grub worms, they’re surface feeding, it will give you natural repellant, and it gives you extra drought tolerance. By using these mixtures, you can build in some actual insect fighting and reduce your fertilizer needs right off the top. It’s really pretty easy, even if you got an old lawn, you can over seed to reintroduce some of these species. YardScaping website has a lot of really good information on it.
Amy: Right. It includes tips about making sure you water deeply, but less frequently, so that you want to really encourage the roots for the lawn. You want to mow high, three inches. If you’re going to fertilize besides doing a soil test, you want to wait until the end of the summer, so late summer, early fall, whereas now, this time of year, we get a lot of calls and people are ready to fertilizer now. The soil really isn’t warm enough. They’re usually pretty wet. It’s just not a good time. The best time is later in the season. Also, a good time to reseed or put in a new lawn is also later in the season, when the soils are warmer, and you can have a more consistent rainfall. Those are also things that the YardScaping program reinforces to people.
Lisa: Isn’t there also some conversation in the fall about not necessarily raking up every single leaf that falls on the ground, and whatever leaves you do rake up, put them into a compost pile or compost system. These seemed like other important considerations.
Amy: They are. Besides maybe not raking the leaves, but having a molting blade on your lawnmower and shredding the leaves and keeping them in place, and they’re then putting that organic matter back into the soil, the same with you lawn clippings. If you’re out mowing instead of bagging it, again a molting blade on your mower and just molting it, and keeping it in place to add back the organic matter. If you are going to rake the leaves, if that’s something that you really love to do, you can rake them and then, yes, incorporate them into your compost pile, a little bit at a time. You want to keep the ratio of carbon:nitrogen to 30:1. It’s better to shred them, because they’ll decompose faster.
Frank: I also like to work some of the leaves into my vegetable garden in the fall, because it’s a great way to stimulate the microbes and the worms and the soil to improve the soil. You’ll get that fertility benefit the following year.
Lisa: Amy you work in Cumberland County, and Frank you work in York County. What’s going on in York County from a Cooperative Extension service availability?
Frank: Amy and I work in a lot of the same program areas. Even though York County and Amy’s Cumberland County, the lines are blurred, we both do state-wide and beyond programming as well. We don’t have tiered gardens initiated the way Amy does. Actually, Wells Estuarine Research Reserve, we had a collaboration with them for many years. We have a demonstration garden of landscaping with native Maine plants. We also have a vegetable garden there called, “The All Seasons Garden,” that we’re also growing for Maine Harvest for Hunger. Also, we’re doing a three sisters project that one of our lawns here has spearheaded with corn, squash and beans.
Then they’re using the ornamental part for the Laudholm Farm’s annual Punkinfiddle Festival as decoration. The garden has become a place also for teaching public workshops and for learning. The native garden is a self-guided tour thing. We’ve done a really nice job in the last year of labeling with common names and scientific names of the native plants that you have there. One of the other really positive things about that is native plants, because they evolved here generally speaking, have a less of a pest profile, so it less likely to be attacked and then need all these other inputs to keep them from being eaten by whatever. Some of them are quite beautiful. Some people are starting to take a new look at landscaping with native plants. I’m certainly not a purest about it. I have some beautiful non-native plants. It can also help us to avoid accidentally introducing invasive species.
Lisa: You’ve mentioned the Maine Harvest for Hunger. What about the Maine Hunger Dialogue?
Frank: Yeah, the Maine Hunger Dialogue, Amy and I are both on the committee for that, and 2014 was the first annual Maine Hunger Dialogue. We’ve had two now. This came about through an organization that we’ve been to nationals and international summits called, “The Universities Fighting World Hunger.” We got interested in that from our Maine Harvest for Hunger work. Through that, we started hearing about these State Hunger Dialogues. At that time, there’d only been two in the nation; one in Kansas and one in North Carolina.
When we went to the summit that year, they had a workshop on how to do a hunger dialogue. Amy and I sat in and they’re all looking at us and said, “Oh yeah, in Maine, you got to do one.” We said, “Okay. We don’t know what we’re doing, but okay.” We gave ourselves 18 months. What it is, is we reach out to all colleges in the universities within the state. Here in Maine, it was the community colleges, the entire UMaine system, and then the private [inaudible 00:23:03], Bowdoin, Kaplan, every university in Maine and invited staff and students to come together for a day and a half to learn about hunger, to learn about programs that are going on in the state.
Then also it’s for them to assess what’s happening on their campuses and share that. We were able to get funding to sponsor these, what we called these, “Mini-grants.” During the day and a half, we encouraged the group student meet in their campuses and start outlining potential projects and then have an application deadline for these mini-grants about a month after the Hunger Dialogue. In 2014, we attracted 85 participants, students and staff, from 16 campuses in Maine, which we thought, we were really excited about.
This year, we hit our capacity at 150 in 19 campuses and one high school. We funded 14 mini-grants following this year’s Hunger Dialogue. I was at an opening yesterday for York County Community College, use their funding to support a food pantry on campus. One of the things I learned and I’ve been astounded about is that the level of food in security on college campuses, especially the community schools and community colleges.
Lisa: Well, it sounds like we have to have another show just about hunger dialogue project.
Amy: Yes.
Lisa: How can people find out about the work that each of you does with the university of Maine, Cooperative Extension?
Amy: Let’s say through our websites. There’s the UMaine website under Cooperative Extension, and then also Cumberland County Extension and York County Extension also have their own websites, and Facebook pages. We put a lot out on social media.
Frank: If you Google the Maine Hunger Dialogue or Google Maine Harvest for Hunger, you’ll hit on your websites. We’ll also put in a plug for Maine Harvest for Hunger as we’re into spring. What we do is we recruit community gardeners, home gardeners, anybody that’s willing to grow a little extra. Then we help to link them with their local food pantry. We also do a lot in networking with the farmers. Some of our master garden volunteers get organized into greening teams and go out and work on those farms. I would encourage people that are listening to check that out and now that it’s early in the season, maybe this is something you could get involved in this year.
Lisa: How can they read the piece that you wrote about YardScaping and more about the YardScaping program?
Frank: I think you’re referring to a fact sheet I wrote on, I’m not even sure we can get the title right, “Maintaining a low input, healthy lawn,” that you can get through the Publications page on our website, and along with some videos. There’s a lot of YouTube videos too that other people have done and a lot of other resources. If you get into the Publications page and go to the Home Garden link, you’ll see all kinds of information sheets that are, as Amy said, that a lot of them are free downloads.
Amy: The Maine YardScaping site also has wonderful information-
Frank: Yeah, YardScaping.org.
Lisa: We could keep talking for a long time. There’s a wealth of knowledge that you both have. I think this is just going to start paying people’s interest. I encourage people who are listening, whether you’re interested in the Maine Harvest for Hunger or the Maine Hunger Dialogue or the University of Maine, Cooperative Extension, or YardScaping. You can go any direction with any of these things, but there’s a lot going on. I really give you so much credit for the work that you’re doing, and I appreciate you taking the time to come in and talk with us today.
We’ve been speaking with Amy Witt, who is the Home Horticulturist at the University of Maine Cooperative Extension, and also Frank Wertheim, who is an Associate Extension Professor of Agriculture and Horticulture with the University of Maine Cooperative Extension. Amy based in Cumberland County and Frank based in York County. Thanks so much for coming in.
Amy: Thank you for having us.
Frank: Thank you very much.